Transcript

Mike Conrad [00:00:00] From PBS NewsHour Student Reporting Labs, this is Teacher Reporting Labs, bonus episode.

Michael Kaufman  Bah bah bah bah bah hey

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Mike Conrad Hey, it's Mike Conrad here.

Michael Kaufman [00:00:13] And Michael Kaufman. 

Mike Conrad [00:00:15] And we're just back to revisit the full conversation that we had with Dr. Melanie Schwartz on educator mental health and well-being.

Michael Kaufman [00:00:22] So as we end towards the school year, doctor Melanie Schwartz will be helping us out because she is a licensed psychologist and the owner of Viewpoint Psychology and Wellness here in Michigan. So let's take a listen to that conversation.

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Mike Conrad [00:00:41] We're looking for tools and resources for teachers to say, okay, I do need some help with this and who can I talk to? What about the teachers who think that they're just at the end of the rope, when people are leaving teaching in waves? What about those teachers that are just there at the end, and they don't know if they can continue on in this profession?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:01:00] Well, for some of them, you know, some of them, the best option is to leave teaching. That's not what we want. But for some of them they may be, you know, they may not have the same coping skill sets that some people have …that, that’s what they need. And I'm not saying that that's where they need to go with it. But that is one option. The other option is have they you know, they've just reached a limit of I don't know what else to do, but the question is, what have they done to try to work through it during that time? Have they sought out therapy? Have they talked to their support system, family, friends, other colleagues…developing balance in their lives, or do they really lack that? They really have to develop some mindfulness. Are they doing that or are they just so burnt out they can't think clearly and they're just like, this is the easiest way to deal with this situation is I'm just going to leave the profession and go elsewhere. There's always options, but the best intervention in that is really looking at yourself and saying, is this really what I want to do? Or have I done everything I can to determine that this is where I'm at, or do I need to possibly look at some other options prior to that? And am I really utilizing everything I can to figure out if this is the best step for me?

Mike Conrad [00:02:08] I saw that you work with the West Bloomfield Police Department, a lot of trauma based professions. How can you compare those professions to talking to teachers?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:02:19] I think we all live in a world over the last four years; well, we'll go with four years where the level of people who have experienced trauma has increased significantly from a variety of factors. And so while we're not necessarily witnessing the trauma that the police officers or fire department first responders see,  we're still enduring it and experiencing it and going through it. So they're witnessing it, which we are not necessarily doing. We're going through it. So there is, you know, some similarities in that trauma. It's trauma. But the difference is how we're experiencing it. When it comes to diagnosing somebody who has experienced trauma and has a PTSD diagnosis, it's all the same. Whether you've witnessed it or you're experiencing it, it still can….you know, you can develop the diagnosis of PTSD.

Mike Conrad [00:03:10] And I think PTSD is an important thing to bring up. I mean, there's a kind of a, you know, comical way to talk about it where if we do a zoom at work or we do a WebEx, you know, staff meeting, I get PTSD of teaching virtually all over again. And it's hard. And it's, it's it's, you know, zoom fatigue was real. You know, trying to teach virtually was impossible. And I think that a lot of us still have a little PTSD. But then even outside of that, situations in the classroom, if you have an experience with a child or a student or a parent, and then you experience that again later, those feelings come washing back.

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:03:45] Absolutely.

Mike Conrad [00:03:46] Yeah. What can you tell us about that feeling?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:03:48] If we have experienced trauma, the feeling—the brain doesn't differentiate between time. Those feelings come right back when you're perceiving that same experience over again. It might be a different experience, but it still feels traumatic. So then it just comes washing back from what you previously experienced. If you haven't dealt with it through, working through it in some way, whether it's in therapy or on your own, but it will be the exact same emotional experience, regardless of time.

Mike Conrad [00:04:14] On a related note to that. We received a question from a teacher at Beaverton Academy of Science and Engineering in Beaverton, Oregon from Jared. And Jared asks on a daily basis, how can we feel a sense of completion with a job that's never done? And that's not even talking about perfectionism, that's just talking about doing your job and knowing when you go to bed at night, you're in the hole. What can you tell anybody that has that sense of feeling? And I think in teaching, it's a pretty common daily emotion.

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:04:42] You have to change your expectations based on what is happening that day. Because if you go in with, you know, I'm going to get through this today and I'm going to get through this today. You don't know what's going to happen that day, how the kids are going to be, what's going on with them emotionally, what else is going to get in the way of that day? You know, in this day and age, it can be a variety of things. And so you have to change, lower your expectations of what you're going to accomplish and be okay with that, that there's nothing wrong with that, okay? You have no control over what goes on in your environment. You have control over how you handle what goes on in your environment. And so if you have a chaotic day or the kids aren't listening, cooperating or distracting or going through whatever they're going through, you have to focus on that. You can't focus on the lesson per se, because that becomes secondary at that point. So it's more, you know, lowering the expectation of that. The problem is, I know you also have admin who are saying, well, you have to get through this, this, this mess. We all understand it's an unrealistic expectation. But at the end of the day, you're going to get through what you need to get through. Okay, and whatever that looks like. And even if it's not, one day it'll catch up at another point. Or even if it doesn't, then, you know, maybe that's a discussion to have at some point with admin or whoever. But I think there has to be looking at the situation differently. And that's how you have to approach your day: not what's going to happen, but how you're going to deal with what happens.

Mike Conrad [00:06:02] So you're saying all those memes I see on Instagram saying it's okay to not be okay is okay?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:06:09] Yes, absolutely. .

Mike Conrad [00:06:14] Yeah. I think, on a personal note—this is some years ago now. But my son, when he was 11 years old, called a family meeting and my wife and I were like, oh, this ought to be good. Okay. So he sits us down and he sits down and says, okay. And he's 11. He says, you guys are never home. I spend more time with grandma than I do with you. When you are home, you're arguing all the time, and when you're not arguing, you don't have time to do something with me because you're working. And he went– he spent a good couple minutes, you know, just throwing us into the fire. When he finished, I said, are you done? He said, yeah. I said, okay, good. All right. Tomorrow I'm going to resign my union position. Tomorrow I'm going to cancel this club meeting. And that was when I learned that it was okay to say no because it was not affecting …my teaching was probably skyrocketing at the time; I think I was probably the most involved that I was, but my family was hurting, so I had to back off. And when I started telling everybody at work, I'm sorry, I can't do that. I'm sorry, I can't do that—nobody criticized me or judged me on that. And I feel like that's something that we forget that we're allowed to do.

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:07:20] Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because there's always pressure to do more. I mean, we even do that with the students, right? Do more and more and more and more. Join this, have more homework. You know, the expectations are higher. The..well, it’s the same thing for the adults as it is for the students, but it's not healthy for the students and not healthy for the adults either. And it's learning how to navigate that. And in this world that we've created a lot of pressure and what success looks like. And success unfortunately, is equal to being busy and and, you know, doing more and more and more in the reality of the situation: that's not true, because that makes us have more mental health issues and less quality of life. So it's learning how to navigate that. It's a very difficult task to really look at yourself and see, and unless you have your child coming to you and saying you're not home, I need more from you, which doesn't happen all that often. You know, it's on you to look at it yourself and say, where do I have to do this differently? But people unfortunately don't get to that point until they reach burnout sometimes, which is too far, you know, if you've gone too far in it.

Mike Conrad [00:08:27] Well, teacher burnout, I think there's a whole —we could do an entire podcast, I think, on teacher burnout—but you mentioned something that I think it's really fascinating. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about it, which is sometimes we think success as being busy, and how to cope with that. So what could you suggest? You know, in a world where we're constantly being told to do more, doing more, we're not hitting the expectations, but because we're doing all this stuff, we thought we had a successful day. How can we cope with that?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:08:54] Again, it really goes back to changing your thinking at it. So I look at the world in two ways. It's your thinking and your behavior, okay? We can change our behavior and we can change our thinking okay. And that's going to create a better environment for us overall and decrease. If you are having symptoms of mental health issues, that will decrease it, if you navigate some of that. We listen to what's kind of coming at us, okay. But we're not listening to ourselves all the time. We're listening to the pressures of the world. You know what success looks like on TV or anywhere else, or even this world or what, you know, people are teaching us how to do, okay, whether that's coming from teachers, because that's what they're being told they have to do, or it's coming from social media, or it's coming from all these things that are coming at us that are overstimulating on a regular basis. Okay? And if it's repeatedly coming at you, that's when you start to believe it.

Mike Conrad [00:09:47] One thing that, you know, I, I am beginning to find out is that it's okay to take a day.

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:09:53] Yes, absolutely.

Mike Conrad [00:09:54] As, as a school district, we are given, you know, 11 sick days per year. I used to not use them. Why would I use them? I have spring break. I've got holiday break. I've got Thanksgiving break. I now realize that on a Thursday I can take a day and I can throw a sub plan out there, and I can come in Friday feeling a little bit better, but not doing what some of my colleagues do, which is take a day off to do their job. So what's the danger of something like that?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:10:20] What I will hear from clients is that it's more stressful for me to write a sub plan, not know who's going to be the sub in the class and let go of that control. So they just don't take care of themselves to avoid the anxiety of not having control over that day. Okay, so I will work with them on: it's more important to take care of you, that is, to take care of whatever else is going on you can like the class will be perfectly fine. It's not going to implode. Everything will be okay. And, you know, work with them on that. But yes, if you are just going, going, going and just saying, well, I don't need to take it, it's fine. I'll just keep going on with my day or my days or my week. You're well, what's going to happen is you're gonna get sick. Okay? Depending on what grade you're in working in— you already are in a germ infested environment on a regular basis. Your immunity is going to go down. It's going to affect your mental health. It's going to affect your, like you said, time with your family. It's going to affect your ability to be present with your friends and family or the activities that you're choosing to do when you're not working, because you're going to be so tired that you're not going to be present moving forward. So it's more harmful not to than it is to take that day.

Mike Conrad [00:11:36] So but, you know, and I see that because I know there's times where I start to feel sick because I'm just driving, you know, running myself into the ground. But some teachers will take one of their personal days, one of their sick days to sit at home and do all of their grading. So they're not taking that day for themselves or taking it to work. And then when they actually are sick, they can't take a day off as they're out of home, or they've taken their sick days because their kids are sick and they have to now take a sick day to be at home with their kid. So you're merging your personal life and your personal stresses and your professional stresses. Where do we go with that?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:12:08] I think it's a much more complicated question or answer with moms who have to take days for their sick kids, because that is unfortunately something that happens a lot, especially people with young kids. So I don't know that I have an answer for that situation per se, because it's–it’s complicated. But I think that in terms of if you're taking those days and not using them the way that you need to use them, then maybe you're not balancing your time exactly as you need to and you're not saying no. And so you do need those days to take off, to do work in which you're that, you know, that's a vicious cycle that you're getting yourself into. So it does come back to setting boundaries and saying no. So that you…

Mike Conrad [00:12:48] I’m sensing a theme, I'm sensing a theme here

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:12:51] There's a big theme, there’s a big theme, Yeah, yes.

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Michael Kaufman [00:12:58] So as we get towards the end of the school year, hopefully you heard some interesting conversation and more importantly, some tools that you can use that can help you get through the end of this year and the beginning of next year, and something that you can always revisit and go, you know what? I can use this stuff. I need this now, and it will give you some help.

Mike Conrad [00:13:17] From PBS NewsHour Student Reporting Labs, this bonus episode for Teacher Reporting Labs was produced by SRL’s Community Engagement Manager Emily Hope Dobkin, edited by Evan Gulock, with support from Lead Podcast, Producer Briget Ganske

Michael Kaufman [00:13:29] And of course, many thanks to SRL editorial director Marie Cusick and executive producer Leah Clapman.

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Transcript

Mike Conrad [00:00:00] You know, a lot of people listening: I know you have your own issues in your own things that you're going through with your, working in the profession of education and teaching. And I think one of mine is and I don't think it will ever change…which is that I don't know of another job, another career where you take as much home with you as you do in this job. Thinking about the kids who are struggling, dealing with parent communication, trying to figure out all the time that I have in my day to do planning and evaluations that are coming due. And it has nothing to do with homework or schoolwork, but it has everything to do with being a teacher. Now, that being said, I'm having a great year. The kids are fantastic.  But I just never feel like I can catch up. Oh, you know, I'm gonna catch up, you know when? June 15th. Oh.

[00:00:53] From PBS NewsHour Student Reporting Labs, this is Teacher Reporting Labs, where we're shaking it up by putting educators like us behind the mic to report back on a mix of topics, triumphs, challenges, all the things we face in the classroom with some great candid conversations. I am Mike Conrad.

Michael Kaufman [00:01:09] And I am Michael Kaufman, and together we are, “The Mikes.” All right, well, all right, let's start talking about what's going to happen on this episode…

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Teacher 1 [00:01:21] One thing that's affecting my mental health personally as a teacher is just seeing the struggles that students are having bouncing back after the pandemic.

Teacher 2 [00:01:32] There are times when this all feels really lonely. I was acutely aware of it during Covid, but even post-Covid, I feel like I don't fit neatly into a content area team.

Teacher 3 [00:01:41] The expectation of having to teach so many different types of classes just to stay full time, and the expectation of having to do it well. This led to me having a panic attack on the freeway and developing panic disorder, to the point where I had trouble getting out of the house. 

Teacher 4 [00:01:55] It definitely, affected sleep patterns. It's definitely affected the amount of spirit I have for other parts of my life.

Teacher 5 [00:02:04] As an educator for over 20 years, something that has only recently taken a toll on my mental health is the increasing apathy in students. Their lack of motivation or desire to learn just drains the positive energy out of the room. It's not only frustrating, it's contagious.

Teacher 6 [00:02:18] I love my job, I really do. But it's not just about teaching students. My job doesn't end there. It's not all rainbows and sunshine and summer breaks, but we're teachers and we have to learn to deal with it, right? Because we're doing it for the kids.

Teacher 7 [00:02:31] The loss of three students to murder on separate occasions, and two dying from tragic situations during my first year of teaching has been an incredibly challenging ordeal. Every day, I grappled with the whirlwind of emotions while trying to maintain composure in the classroom. But through it all, I've learned the importance of seeking support, both from colleagues and mental health professionals, channeling my grief into a renewed commitment of supporting the well-being of my students and myself.

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Michael Kaufman [00:03:05] So those are just some of the teachers from the SRL community sharing some real life challenges, difficult situations, and basically overall frustrations that occur on a daily basis can really tear us apart.

Mike Conrad [00:03:17] So the roller coaster that we go on as educators...the emotional roller coaster that we go on, I think really, really can affect our mental health. And that's what today's episode is here to focus on. On educator mental health and well-being.

Michael Kaufman [00:03:29] Yes. And today's episode is just slightly different. We're still going to hear from two educators from this topic. And then we invited a psychologist to chat a little bit more about this, since we know there's not a lot of resources available. And let's face it, there is an enormous need for some more discussion surrounding this topic, especially getting some support from a professional.

Mike Conrad [00:03:52] But before we get to her, I would like to introduce a couple of the teachers that are part of our SRL Student Reporting Labs community. Today, we're going to toss into the conversation with Nancy Frazier and Miriam Townsend. They actually met just last summer, at SRL's teacher workshop in the podcast training room, which is great. So this is a nice little reunion for them.

Michael Kaufman [00:04:09] Yeah. And, here's a little bit about Nancy. Nancy teaches art, broadcast journalism, Python coding, and yearbook. She's also the art department chair, and she's the title one coordinator and the Eld coordinator for her school site. She teaches 11th and 12th at Tierra del Sol Continuation High School in Bakersfield, California. It's a lot, Nancy. 

Mike Conrad [00:04:32] Yeah, I mean, talk about being overwhelmed.

Michael Kaufman [00:04:34] Yeah.

Mike Conrad [00:04:34] And Miriam Townsend serves as the CTE Career Technical Education Department chair. She's at a public high school in Saint Louis, Missouri, teaches multimedia classes to junior and senior students, and serves as the advisor of two clubs.

Michael Kaufman [00:04:46] Oh my gosh.

Mike Conrad [00:04:47] All right, so let's take a breath. 

Michael Kaufman [00:04:49] I’m overwhelmed.

Mike Conrad [00:04:51] Let's take a breath and hear what they have to say on educator mental health and well-being. Take it away.

Miriam [00:05:03] Many of our listeners know teaching can be very demanding on just so many levels. What are some of the daily challenges you faced in California as an educator that take a toll on your mental health and well-being?

Nancy [00:05:18] Even though a student has a right to fail, I don't want to see that. I don't want to see a student fail in my world. I want to see a student succeed. A lot of times I've tried to get students motivated and trying. A lot of times students, it's hard to get them engaged and some students don't want to be engaged. And then in my heart, I feel like I failed. I'm always trying to help the students and it does wear on me. I hadn't even I hadn't even thought about how much that wears on me. It gets hard.

Miriam [00:05:47] I think, for me, on a daily basis is just the nuance with knowing that, like, I teach three different classes in one day, so we have a four block period. So I'm planning for three different types of classes, on phone calls with parent, or in a meeting with the parent and the admin...and God forbid if you are a coach where I have been a coach before, or if you are sponsor of a club and you're trying to prepare students to compete, you know, dealing with kids that might be getting bullied, you know, I've had to deal with that situation. How it can disrupt the classroom and actually disrupt the learning environment. Not only is that a challenge, but that mentally affects you. I know I've come home some evenings and I'm just tired. Like I didn't do anything physically but mentally, I am tired. Yes. And when you're dealing with teenagers, you know, teenagers that aren't your children. And they talk to you with their hormones that are going helter skelter. And you have to maintain that level of professionalism. So there are so many challenges that it can take a toll on you. And that's where you really need to know who you are. And, you know, have that sense of grounding. You know, you're grounded in something, whether it's your religion, your spirituality, your mindfulness, journaling. You know, those are all challenges that on a daily basis…teachers: we’re facing.

Nancy [00:07:31] Oh, I do mindfulness, I do, and I will also stop my class and have my entire class do mindfulness. I will have my class take part in as well. Sometimes I'll say, okay, we're just gonna take a deep breath and they look at me, okay? We're going to breathe deeply and they think I'm crazy. And that's okay.

Miriam [00:07:48] Yeah, mental health is definitely a big factor in our district. And for me personally, my spirituality is kind of what keeps me grounded. So every morning I start off with, you know, prayer, and reflection on the day ahead as well as, you know, what has transpired, you know, previously for me, that's the, the, the grounding that makes me go into my day calm. I also listen to calming music, whether it's jazz, whether it's gospel music that helps me take care. And then, of course, I have some wonderful friends. I keep telling them to send me their therapist bills. But these are friends I've had for years, for decades. And so they keep me; they help with my mental strength. You know, they remind me of who I am, what I've done. You know, that I can get this. You know, I can go through this. And then my family, of course, is also very important to me. How do you take care? You're in sunny California. You know, I like everything's happy.

Nancy [00:08:52] Oh, yeah. You know, it just depends. A lot of times for me, it's with with life in general. It's sometimes I've had tough days. I've got some, you know, sometimes my kids can be really tough, and I try to put on always put on a positive spin. I always try to be upbeat for my students. I find a lot of times my students are kind of my I don't know, it's they've gotten me through so much of my life. Believe it or not. My husband recently passed away and I used to always go home and talk to him because he too was an educator. And so we would have these wonderful conversations and that always sometimes he would ground me. I'd go home, oh my God, this kid's driving me crazy. And he’d go, okay, honey, back up. I want you to think about what you just said, because now what is going through that students mind and life. And that's something I really miss with him being gone because of—he was truly the person I always went to, but it's trying to find that time for myself. It's been kind of hard to find that time, and in the last year I've been kind of in survival mode and, but I've come through I've come through it actually, thanks to a lot of my students because it's like when I'm struggling, they and I'll let them know, hey, I'm having a bad day and I and it's not like a horrible day, but I'm kind of struggling and, they understand. So I really feel like my students helped me through one of the most difficult times of my life, because they were supportive. I had one day where I had an entire entourage of all these kids that just kind of came up and gave me a hug, said Mr. Frazier: we’re here if you need us. I just stood there and of course, and of course I'm crying. They go, stop crying. We're gonna start crying. Of course, they all started crying. I love my students and I love being here. And I think when you're real with them and authentic with them, which I am: you get that back from them. Jared. Jared from Beaverton Academy of Science and Engineering in Beaverton, Oregon, did also ask: on a daily basis, how can we feel a sense of completion with a job that's never done?

Miriam [00:10:45] Oh gosh, you're absolutely right. The job is never done. I know I was at an event and a student came up to me and was like, are you Miss Townsend? I'm like, yeah. And then I recognized her. I remembered her name. And it had probably been at least, you know, six years. And she was like, oh, I'll graduate in, you know, in the spring. And actually I only have one class, but I'm working now. I'm a nurse or. Yeah, senior or whatever. She was working in the hospital.

Nancy [00:11:15] To me, even though it's a job that's never done, that is so rewarding. And knowing that that I made a difference in someone's life, it's like, you know, that's the joy of teaching, is knowing that we both make we make differences in students lives. And I, you know, we have hard days and tough days, and it is a job that never ends. Seeing those students, it kind of it comes full circle.

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Mike Conrad [00:11:44] It is a job that never ends. And I know that Nancy and Miriam have a pretty positive outlook on it all. They surround themselves with some great students and some great affirmations. And you all know, and I know that there are days out there were some teachers, and I know a lot of these teachers who really just feel like that, that are at the end of their rope.

Michael Kaufman [00:12:02] Yeah.

Mike Conrad [00:12:02] And need more than positive affirmations to get through what they're going through right now.

Michael Kaufman [00:12:06] 100%. But what we really need is someone who can give us some tools, right? Because when things fall apart, what do you do? You build them back up. And what do you need? You need tools. So, Conrad, you had an amazing conversation with someone who can give us those tools. I did. Doctor Melanie Schwartz is a licensed psychologist and the owner of Viewpoint Psychology and Wellness here in Michigan. So let's take a listen.

Mike Conrad [00:12:32] I think in our building, what I see is, you know, we do mental health days for the students. We do, wellness weekends where there's no homework, but nothing tossed the teachers way saying, okay, we understand that you're going through a lot as well. How do we step back and take care of ourselves?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:12:47] I will keep saying it. Mindfulness. And I know it was said between the teachers too. And when I say mindfulness, I mean being able to look at yourself and identifying how you're thinking and feeling in any given situation at any moment. Mindfulness is key, because if you can't look at yourself and understand what you're thinking and what you're feeling both physically and emotionally, then you're just going to keep doing it. You're going to keep running the rat race. You're going to just keep going forward, going forward, going forward until it's too late. So it's really very important to look at yourself and say, what am I capable of doing? Okay. If I what is my measure of success? Not what everyone else is telling me my measurement of success is, but what is my measure of success? Okay, so you have to ask yourself that. And if you're not where you feel like you need to be, what do you need to do to change that? And the answer is learning to set boundaries and to say no. Okay. Now, whether that's professionally or personally, that's one way of self-care is learning. And what comes from that is, unfortunately, perfectionists often have that I should statement that goes into their mind, I should do this. I have to do this. I need to do this. That's just your own irrational thinking that's there, that's making you feel guilty or have some anxiety towards something that's not healthy for you, which is kind of going above and beyond, and it's going to end up hurting you more than anything else. If you're going above and beyond too much, and it's impacting you to a point that you're not helpful anymore, you're hurting yourself and you need to be able to step back.

Mike Conrad [00:14:18] And then it's okay to say no. Like saying no is okay.

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:14:21] And that's good to teach the kids that that it's good to say no.

Mike Conrad [00:14:24] I know that as teachers, we are told consistently to understand and appreciate and recognize that students come to our classroom every day with baggage, something that's going on in their personal life that is affecting their learning that day. And I think as teachers, we forget that we are coming to the school day with our own baggage from stressors from the day before. It could be financial, it could be personal, it could be something with the house. And that's going to affect our delivery of that instruction for the day.

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:14:51] Absolutely.

Mike Conrad [00:14:52] So how can I say no? How do I do that when my personal life is coming into play, into my teaching life? Because setting boundaries and saying no doesn't work?

Dr. Melanie Schwartz [00:15:00] That's a good question. Yeah, we all okay. Sometimes it is hard to separate out the two things. It is because, you know, there there are certain things that like I said, we don't control, right? Stuff happens, life happens. It does affect how we work, what we do. You're coming in with all these stressors and you're coming in with whatever's gone on that morning or the day before or whatever it is. That is why I can never stress enough the importance of therapy. Yeah. Find a therapist to have somebody there continuously to help you through these difficult situations. Just in this day and age alone, not having somebody on your side to listen, who's not going through what you're going through, you know, it's it's it's difficult. And so just and people say, well, I don't have time for therapy. Well telehealth is a great option. So you can always make time okay. And you know, people work on the weekend. There's therapists and there's always a time to meet with a therapist. It's an excuse that people use, but if you want to make time for it and make time for yourself and start to feel better with what you're going through, there's always that option. You know, it really does also come back to that support, that peer support to have some people around who have a little bit more space to help the teachers who are struggling a bit more and to recognize that and to say like, hey, what can we do to to help you? I think it's just being able to talk about it and see where the struggles are and hopefully get people to listen and that there is a solution to the problem. It doesn't have to keep going on, or pretending that it's not there to be able to make some changes and and create a healthier environment for what everyone has to go through right now. Then it will make for a better work environment, better teaching environment, better everything. It's just people having to be open. To the idea.

Michael Kaufman [00:16:51] Wow. There was a lot to unpack there. I mean, in general, the trick is one set some boundaries to two. No, if you need two and three if you really need to see a therapist.

Mike Conrad [00:17:03] Yeah. And you know what? There's actually so much more to that conversation that I had with Doctor Schwartz that we're going to take that and package it up into a bonus episode that's coming soon. Because there's such a lack of resources out there. Doctor Melanie Schwartz provided so many more insights that I think it'll be great for you all to hear, especially as we approach the end of the school year.

Michael Kaufman [00:17:22] Seriously. It's a balancing act and teaching that gets just completely overwhelming for so many of us. So stay tuned for that bonus episode.

Mike Conrad [00:17:29] And for now, this wraps up episode three and our pilot season of two Teacher Reporting.

Michael Kaufman [00:17:35] Yay! Oh my God.

Mike Conrad [00:17:39] This episode was produced by Community Engagement Manager Emily Hope Dobkin. Also known as Dobz, edited by Evan Gulock with support from lead podcast producer Briget Ganske. 

Michael Kaufman [00:17:49] And many thanks to SRL editorial director Marie Cusick and Executive Producer and the O.G. of SRL, Leah Clapman.

[00:18:03] I can't believe that this is the end. To conclude, I brought Conrad a small gift, and it was a mug. And it was in a box. And then my wife went downstairs and grabbed keys. So you can't get my box, you have to put it in a bag. So she goes, she gets his bag and gets all the fluffy things to put in a bag. And I'm like, no, no. I went to Cub Scouts. I know how to put this together properly. So I grab some paper, I put it around the box, I tie it up really neatly and I show it to my wife. And, you know, I tell her, I say, now that. Oh, wow.

Mike Conrad [00:18:37] I was wondering where you're going that.

Michael Kaufman [00:18:40] I thought you were going to join me. I didn't know that was it.

Mike Conrad [00:18:43] You caught me off guard. I didn't know that was it. Oh, that was a good one.

Transcript

TEACHER REPORTING LABS: EPISODE 2, CREATING INCLUSIVE CLASSROOM ENVIRONMENTS 

Mike Conrad [00:00:00] From PBS NewsHour Student Reporting Labs, this is Teacher Reporting Labs. Where we’re– you aren't going to– Oh, hello. This is…

Michael Kaufman [00:00:07] Oh I thought [ laughter ] 

Mike Conrad [00:00:08] Teacher—can we try that again?

Michael Kaufman [00:00:10] I think we need to…

[ music ] 

Mike Conrad [00:00:13] From PBS NewsHour Student Reporting Labs, this is… 

Michael Kaufman & Mike Conrad [00:00:19] Teacher Reporting Labs!

Mike Conrad [00:00:20] where we're—good job—where we're shaking it up by putting educators like us behind the mic to report back on a mix of topics, triumphs, challenges in real talk that we face in the classroom with some great candid conversations.

Michael Kaufman [00:00:33] And this is only our second episode, so welcome. We're hosts. I'm Michael Kaufman.

Mike Conrad [00:00:39] And I am Mike Conrad.

Michael Kaufman [00:00:40] Aka “The Mikes.” Okay. Oh, and we are recording live from Conrad's classroom. This episode is about creating inclusive classroom environments. 

Mike Conrad [00:00:52] Yeah. And can we, maybe for a minute, just lose the edu- speak? Yeah, for lack of a better term, let's dumb this down to the point where you are in front of a student. And, how do you make that student feel accepted or engaged?

Michael Kaufman [00:01:04] Sure. I mean, I think that's what's so important is how people outside of the education world still perceive education is: there's a teacher, there's 25 plus students. They talk.

Mike Conrad [00:01:14] Maybe more.

Michael Kaufman [00:01:15] Probably more, and they stand in front of that classroom, and: the entire classroom absorbs this information exactly the same way. And that's just not how it is.

Mike Conrad [00:01:24] They don't. And we all know that. We all know that because we're in those situations every single day.

Michael Kaufman [00:01:30] Every single day. And the thing is, that to create inclusive environments, you know, without getting all speak-y: you just got to connect with kids. It really should just be like, how do I see a kid as an individual? What did they come into the classroom with? What are they going to leave the classroom with? How are they absorbing the information that's important to them, and try to make it relevant so that it is important to them?

Mike Conrad [00:01:52] And I think there's so many times, I mean, how many times do you look at your plans, look at your calendar, look at your semester, and realize, I can't get it all in?

Michael Kaufman [00:02:00] No, no— all the time.

Mike Conrad [00:02:02] And that happened one year where, you know, one of my former principals, I was having a situation where I was really stressed out. I knew I was not going to get to the checkpoint where I needed to be by the end of the semester. So we sat down, we had a conversation about it. I said, I am so far behind on curriculum, and he said, wait, hold up, are you making connections with the kids? And I said, of course I am. He said: the learning will follow, and I've held that close to me ever since. Even if I'm behind, it's okay, because if the kids are connected with me and I'm connecting with them, we're going to get there.

Michael Kaufman [00:02:29] This is all about creating those types of environments. And so instead of just the two of us going back and forth, we've brought in some experts. 

Mike Conrad [00:02:35] That's right. We've got Cynthia Booker, and Cynthia is a digital video production teacher, and she's in Cleveland Heights High School. She's also a two time Emmy Award winner for being a reporter, a news anchor. So she kind of knows her stuff. I do. And I also, I have to say on a personal note: I adore Cynthia. Cynthia and I connected at the Teacher Workshop in D.C. a couple years ago. We would zoom back and forth every couple of months just to catch up. She is an amazing human being.

Michael Kaufman [00:02:58] Absolutely, 100%. And what's so cool about her is she's only in her, you know, in the early stages of her teaching career, and she's just really rocking it. My guest from SNL is Trina Moore. She is the audio video teacher at Rouse High School in Leander, Texas. She is in her 29th year of teaching. Still going strong, still excited about it, gets into the classroom and brings it every single day for her kids in her audio video courses in Texas. So that's pretty exciting. And that experience really shows in this interview.

Mike Conrad [00:03:29] All right, let's dive into the conversation. We'll check back in with you when the bell rings for passing time.

[ music ] 

Cynthia [00:03:38] Hello, Trina.

Trina [00:03:40] Hey, Cynthia. How are you doing? I was really honored to be invited to take part in this conversation because inclusion—well, and I think it was prefaced that, how do you create an inclusive and safe environment for all your students? And so I don't know if we want to jump right into that kind of conversation. But you know, when we talk about demographics, I think it goes beyond the color of our skin or our cultural background, because culture also includes economics, you know, and value systems and belief systems. And when you account for that with your students, I think there are a number of teachers who are really wrestling with, how do you do it?

Cynthia [00:04:23] To me, I think creating an inclusive classroom means making sure that students feel seen and heard. I try to do that from day one, letting them know a little bit about me; things that I did before I became a teacher that I still had to work hard, had to put in the time and the effort, and that I wasn't always-–maybe in job roles, I wasn't always, seen or heard or accepted. And so I've had my own journey of naysayers. And so I know what that feels like. And so when I go into the classroom, I just want students to understand that I see you, that I hear you. And if you ever have any concerns, never feel like you can't talk to me about it. 

Trina [00:05:08] What interested me —this is my 29th year of teaching…

Cynthia [00:05:12] Oh, congratulations to you. That's great. I'm only in my ninth year, so I'm going to get there sooner or later.

Trina [00:05:20] I've seen some things…

Cynthia I bet 

Trina and I, I keep in contact with a lot of my former students, and I've always taught English or theater or AV. But one common thread through all of my students are some of them are in their 40s now. They kept coming back to how they always felt safe in my room, that when they were in my room, they were able to kind of set aside other things that were going on in their lives, and they knew that they were accepted. And honestly, when I started hearing this, I didn't really think that I did anything that different. But it didn't matter what career they were in. They could look back to my room and that's what they were getting from it. And after I started hearing those things, that's when I really started to be a little more conscientious of how I was creating that environment, that it wasn't just something that I organically was creating, it was something that I was consciously creating, which really helped me. What are some other things that you do to help create that space for your students?

Cynthia [00:06:24] Well, when I think about creating an inclusive classroom, one thing that I do every year when school begins is I do an all about me sheet, and I allow the students to tell me their names, tell me what their pronoun preference is. You know, that is something that I did not do until maybe 2 or 3 years ago. You know, just just recently. So, I had to be very conscious of that, like, to, to make sure that I do that. I let students tell me what they enjoy. Who's in their family? What's their favorite subject, even what's their favorite artist or their color? What do you want to be when you grow up? All of those things so that they feel like, oh, someone's giving me a voice, and I don't want them to feel like when they fill out that form, that, oh, it's just something that we do at the beginning of the year, or she's going to file it away. No, I actually go back and look at those forms. So I use that information to maybe do something in class, whether it's, musical artists that I'm playing, I see that: oh, okay, they like Bob Marley, or they like whoever, and I'll play music. So that makes them feel like, oh, okay. So I guess what I said did not fall on deaf ears 

Trina [00:07:38] Right, right. Like you were mentioning with the pronouns, you know, back in 2005, I wasn't thinking about that. And I think it's a testament to you, Cynthia. And I hope to me, that as things change, or as our cultural norms kind of weave around, that we are flexible and adaptable to that so that as we learn about new subgroups that maybe aren't being seen or heard, that we kind of adjust our rooms to that, too. Piggybacking on what you're saying, that feeling and seeing feeling heard, you know, giving voice is what has always been a part of what I think I've been trying to do, and what I want to continue to do. And I think that's what really our conversation, why we're here, is because that is what our students are needing the most right now. We can teach content all day long, forwards and backwards. Right. But what they're going to be taking away, you know, when they leave our walls, what are they taking with them? And hopefully the content. But also that feeling that they have value and are important for who they are.

Cynthia [00:08:46] Another thing that I do is, every day I put a positive affirmation on the board. Whenever they walk into the classroom, whatever, you know, if they've had a bad day at home or if it was just, you know, I just don't want to be here today– if… whatever. I try to put something on the board every day so that when they whenever they walk into the classroom, it reminds them that they are enough, that they can do it, that they are a winner. What we do is not just being a teacher. I think we, we take on a parent role. We take on a psychologist role, a social worker. We– I think we do it all. You know, we teach the whole child. It is a very holistic approach.

Trina [00:09:33] And that, and that is at the heart of an inclusive classroom: is every kid is capable of something. Maybe not in the same way, as another student, but certainly I've had kids who are on the spectrum who, maybe don't work as well in groups, but they can do other things. I don't know, they're not challenges anymore. If you look at them as the creative options that they have, that doesn't. Not everyone's going to be the same, and we don't want a room of all the kids being all the same, with all the same skill sets and all the same mindsets— it's much more exciting. 

Cynthia [00:10:11] We are all unique, right? We need to appreciate that and nurture that. 

Trina [00:010:15] And I think too, when people hear inclusive classroom, or even safe classroom, they think it's, you know, it’s touchy feely, and we sing Kumbaya and all that. When we really set expectations, high expectations, really there is work to be done. And, and we know that that is part of what we're doing. But I think you said it so well, we teach the whole child, you know, and if we're providing an education for these kids, it has to encompass all of it. But certainly, I don't like any kid to make the mistake, to think that it's a quote unquote slug class. There are deadlines to be met, expectations. They have to be, you know, professional. They have to go out and meet with people, meet people they don't know, talk to them, interview them, understand the technology that they're using. There's so much involved and encompassed in what we do. So I think it's a mistake for people to think that they have to spend so much time making everyone feel safe, that they can't teach. That it takes away from their teaching, where in fact it enhances. You have to build those relationships with the kids, and by creating a safe, welcoming classroom that is. That's huge. I'd say the first week or two weeks of school, it's all about setting up my culture. And so we play a lot of team building games. We do a lot of group discussion. We do a lot of really silly sorts of things to get kids out of their comfort zone. That teaches them to trust each other within the room. And the payoff continues throughout the year. And the time spent creating the relationships means you have more time to teach. You have more time to continue, you know, building expectations and allowing kids to blossom and grow and explore their own creativity and their curiosity. It pays off in spades, really.

[ school bell rings ] 

Mike Conrad [00:12:24] All right. So I'm really glad that they keep bringing up this term safe space.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:12:28] Okay. So what does it mean?

 

Mike Conrad [00:12:30] I know when I first got into teaching, I thought safe space meant, hey, lockdown situations. You know, making sure that kids were safe from each other physically. And there was a teacher that I work with here at the building. He's still here today. Every time we had a conversation about what is your goal for your classroom? What is a goal for your students? What is something that you're proud of? And he'd always say, safe space. And I’m thinking: really? You're putting that much time into it? Really? And then of course, the more experience I got, the more students I had to deal with, the more I got to know them, the more I understand the differentiation between every single kid in my classroom…I realized to me what safe space really meant.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:13:04] But how do you create that? I think that's the bigger issue –is because we talk about it and they mention some, they touch on some things. But early in the episode we talked about, we don't teach a classroom, we teach 25 individuals or more.  And when we deal with them on their own individual level. So what had happened to me in my first years teaching was I had a student who was auditioning for a role, and I asked her what her name was, and she said, my name is Mareen, but everybody calls me Maureen. I said, well, I see on your form here it says M-A-R-E-E-N. And that really didn't sound like Maureen to me. She goes, yeah, but most people can't pronounce my name. I said, what do you want to be called? She goes, well, my whole family calls me Mareen. I like Maureen, I'm like, great, you're Mareen and I got it. And I think your other teachers and other friends will get it.

 

Mike Conrad [00:13:52] It just needed to be that conversation. But sometimes I don't know the other kids–are they afraid to come talk to you about it or afraid to come talk to us about it and have that conversation? Yeah, but you obviously had something going with you. You had a rapport. You had a relationship with her. She was feeling welcoming to talk about it with you. 

 

Michael Kaufman [00:14:08] 100%. And that's what you have to do is create that space where kids feel comfortable to, you know, you have to find where they're at and meet them there for a minute, meet them on their street. They don't have to always come to your street. Right?

 

Mike Conrad [00:14:20] Well, and you want them to feel seen.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:14:21] Yeah. Yeah. Because so often they're invisible in many of their classes. So it's so important when they do feel seen it, it's special.

 

Mike Conrad [00:14:29] So as teachers we do get confident. Yeah. Right? And suddenly you're making an assumption and you think that a student is being seen when you're really not seeing them as they want to be seen. Does that make sense?

 

Michael Kaufman [00:14:44] 100%. We may be meeting them out on the street they think they live on, but.

 

Mike Conrad [00:14:48] We think that they live on.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:14:49] Right. But that's not where they live.

 

Mike Conrad [00:14:51] Right. So let's go back to Cynthia and Trina and hear what they have to say about that.

 

Trina [00:14:54] So I moved to Texas from Minnesota. Which is a very, very vast cultural divide between the two. So from a small school up in Minnesota to at that time I was teaching in another school in rural Texas. I made big assumptions about attitudes and behaviors. The value system: rock solid, awesome. But it was—I didn't always share the same cultural views, and I think it made me awaken to the fact that I have to let go of all of those assumptions in the room. I think I really changed as a teacher, looking at kids as individuals, because I had to meet them where they were. All kids are my kids, you know, no matter what, what background they come from, what their family life is like, what their belief system is. That was a challenge that put me on a path of being a better teacher, because of that. 

 

Cynthia [00:15:54] I honestly can say that I've made assumptions that students can get work done. It's like, well, you know why? What's, you know, you're goofing off. You're not, you know, and a lot of times it might be something that's going on at home that you just need to talk to students, find out what's up with them, and have good relationships too, with the social workers in the school and partner teachers. So you can maybe find out, like if a student is having a challenge in your class, then it might be possible they might be having a challenge in another class. We do something at my high school called Trusted Adult, where there's a form that goes out and the students will put the teacher's name down that they feel like they feel comfortable speaking with. So students don't get lost in the shuffle. And I can tell you right now at my school, we have so many support networks set up for students that they feel heard and seen, and there's help for them, not just in the classroom, but outside of the classroom.

 

Trina [00:16:53] I will say a big change from when I first started teaching is the resources. And the availability and the discussions that we have about things that are so important to our students. And I was going to put a plug in for StoryMaker, because if teachers haven't been using StoryMaker, they should start. And if you type in inclusion in the search bar, there's some great, great assignments and lessons that cover it. In fact, there's one in particular that talks about how to have that conversation at the beginning of the year with kids, about creating empathy and creating connection between kids, and how to have difficult conversations. And like this conversation we're having, Cynthia, it feels like we're just kind of scratching the surface of what it could be. I've picked up some good tips from you, and I want to thank you for that. And I've really thoroughly enjoyed this discussion because it is central to why I have been teaching for so long. It's because I care about these kids, and I want them to have a place where they're learning and growing and creating. It's wonderful to meet a kindred spirit.

 

Cynthia [00:18:04] And I appreciate the conversation, too. And just as you said, kindred spirit, just talking to someone else who can understand, they can relate. I just truly feel the connection.

 

[ music ] 

 

Michael Kaufman [00:18:22] You know what? I could listen to Cynthia and Trina all night because they are awesome. And they are awesome human beings.

 

Mike Conrad [00:18:28] And they have some great ideas and have a lot to say.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:18:30] They do, they do. And I tell you so do a lot of other teachers from across the country. We actually heard from another Mike…

 

Mike Conrad [00:18:38] No.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:18:38] Yeah, true. If you can believe it or not. This guy is Mike Bartoszek from Killeen ISD Career Center in Killeen, Texas.

 

Mike Conrad [00:18:45] What did Mike have to say?

 

Michael Kaufman [00:18:46] Well, he said, I don't know any questions, but, you know, could you explore the idea of connections before content? We talked about student and teacher connections, but we didn't really talk about teacher and teacher connections, which I think is why a lot of people are listening right now. They're trying to connect and feel part of a community, which is what SRL absolutely does. Connections are important for teachers to make with other teachers as well.

 

Mike Conrad [00:19:10] Well, I think so because, because we feel like we're isolated, because we feel like we're on an island. You know, who out there stressed out? Me. Hey, but our hands are raised again.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:19:17] They are

 

Mike Conrad [00:19:18] Yeah. So what do we do about that?

 

Michael Kaufman [00:19:20] I think there's a lot of questions and possibly, hopefully a lot of answers, and maybe we can explore that in another episode 

 

Mike Conrad [00:19:25] And maybe the next one…

 

Michael Kaufman [00:19:26] Oh, that's a great idea, Mike Conrad.

 

Mike Conrad [00:19:30] So that's what we're going to do next week. We're going to talk to you about mental health, specifically teacher mental health.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:19:35] So tune in. Episode three.

 

Mike Conrad [00:19:38] TRL is produced by SRL’s Community Engagement Manager Emily Hope Dobkin, also known as Dobz. It's edited by Evan Gulock with support from lead podcast producer Briget Ganske.

 

Michael Kaufman [00:19:49] And many thanks to SRL Editorial Director Marie Cusick and Executive Producer Leah Clapman. 

 

[ music ] 

 

Michael Kaufman [00:19:58] So my students and I were– last, In the last episode, we were talking about music and how you connected with students through music, right? YSo, I was talking to my students about music as well, and they were playing some different kind of funky music for me. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, let me play this for you. And it was Aerosmith and Run-DMC Walk This way. And I finally looked at my students. You know what I told them? (Here we go) 

 

Michael Kaufman and Mike Conrad [00:20:23] Now, that's a rap.

 

[ laughter ] 

 

Mike Conrad [00:20:26] That's so stupid.

 

[ laughter ] 

 

Transcript

Michael Kaufman [00:00:02] I'm going to take it all the way back. And this is our very first episode, so welcome. We're your hosts. We are hosts...

Mike Conrad [00:00:10] Hosts...

Michael Kaufman [00:00:10] I don't need a big black bug, bit a big black bear.

Mike Conrad [00:00:15] And we don't want to do our...

Michael Kaufman [00:00:16] aluminum linoleum.

Mike Conrad [00:00:17] I don't want to turn into, like, cheesy radio voice like, “welcome from PBS....” –I don't want to do that, but. We're recording this. Yeah. 

[ music ]

Mike Conrad Hey, teachers from PBS's Student Reporting Labs, this is Teacher Reporting Labs. Oh, are you seriously going to do that?

Michael Kaufman: I know right? I thought you'd like that.

Mike Conrad: We're shaking it up by putting teachers and educators like us behind the mic. And what we're going to do is we're going to sit with you and report back on all kinds of topics and triumphs and challenges that you and we are facing in the classroom, and some great candid conversations.

Michael Kaufman [00:00:52] And that's kind of what we're doing. But this is our first episode, so welcome. We are your hosts. I'm Michael Kaufman.

Mike Conrad [00:00:58] And I am Mike Conrad. Mike and I have now known each other for a decade.

Michael Kaufman [00:01:01] Which is crazy.

Mike Conrad [00:01:02] which is crazy. But couldn't imagine a better person to be sitting across the microphone with us to do this podcast for you all.

Michael Kaufman [00:01:08] Ditto.

Mike Conrad [00:01:09] I teach at Royal Oak High School, which is just north of Detroit. I teach TV, video and film. I've been teaching at the school for about 14 years, CTE certified course. And I am a very proud member of the Student Reporting Labs. For the past, I'd say maybe 11 years...

Michael Kaufman [00:01:23] Yeah. And I'm Michael Kaufman. I teach in L'Anse Creuse public schools. I started off as an acting teacher, really. And, kind of transitioned into this accidentally by how many of us do. And, now I teach broadcast journalism and broadcast media in L'Anse Creuse. This first episode is about teaching beyond the curriculum. So the stuff that happens after school; kind of like what we're doing right now. 

Mike Conrad [00:01:46] Yeah, And I think it's really easy to always try to tie stresses and struggles and, all of our extra time into what we're doing and just for curriculum, when a lot of times it's about trying to figure out a way to make those connections with those kids, let them know that sometimes the curriculum, while it's wildly important, the connections are going to help that curriculum get delivered. So how do we do that?

Michael Kaufman [00:02:06] 100% ...how do we do it?

Mike Conrad [00:02:07] We've got Krista McKim, and she teaches broadcast journalism, yearbook and AP lang and composition at Rockville High School in Maryland, which is right outside of Washington, DC, right in the backyard of SRL.

Michael Kaufman [00:02:18] And we also have Doctor Sequoyah Wharton, and he has a digital film, broadcast journalism and visual arts teacher at Brentwood High School in Brentwood, New York. He has a skills trade background, and that kind of makes it really cool. I love when teachers come in with a very different background, other than just coming in straight as educators, because they bring that flavor to the curriculum and to their teaching, and so they become much more passionate, I think. And I can't wait for you to hear from both of them.

Mike Conrad [00:02:43] All right. Let's take a listen.

[ music ] 

Sequoyah [00:02:49] Hi, Krista.

Krista [00:02:50] Hi, Sequoyah.

Sequoyah [00:02:53] So I realize we don't really know each other that well. But I think we've been at a few Student Reporting Labs webinars, maybe even last summer–but, you know, anyway, it's really great to actually have a nice conversation with you in real time, finally. You know, to have an opportunity at least to talk about, some things beyond the classroom, you know?

Krista [00:03:15] I guess for me, everything I do in all of my classes is how does this help the students outside of school? And that's a question I constantly ask myself. What am I teaching and how is it going to help them long term? We do a lot of partnerships and my school, I mean PBS, obviously one of them, Student Reporting Labs, but League of Women Voters. We've done some work with them to help the students understand the electoral process and how to advocate effectively for what they care about. I teach my AP Lang class as an advocacy course because it's nonfiction writing, and so the kids get to really dive into issues that matter to them, and we actually work to try and problem solve: how can we...I mean, I wish we could fix all the issues they want to deal with, but how can they start chipping away at that, that big issue that they care about?

Sequoyah [00:04:12] Very nice. Yeah. It's amazing... like, you know, we do so much, that we don't even think about. I'm still getting my, you know– teaching as my second career. You know, I have a skills trade background where I used to lead construction and demolition jobs, and I thought that was challenging at the time, and I'm like, oh, I'm going to get into teaching, you know? But teaching is even more challenging in some ways. But, but at the same time, I brought a lot of my skills, with people and building teams within the school, which have been really helpful. Talking about that, I had a question where, you know, what do you think is the number one skill, that you find yourself instilling in your students that maybe you never thought about when you took this job?

Krista [00:04:59] Public speaking. That is...that is my baby. So many times, like, the speaking and listening skills kind of get tossed to the side in classes because people are worried about anxiety, which is a real thing, or they're worried about how much time it will take. And for me, every kid needs to know how to get up in front of someone, whether that's their boss later on and they're asking for a raise, or whether that's the city council is gonna tear down their neighborhood and they need to stand up for it. That skill is what I want every single one of my kids to walk away from. And something I'm very proud of, very proud of, is –minus the Covid year—every single year, every single one of my students has given a speech.

Sequoyah [00:05:50] Yeah, well, yeah. Absolutely. Giving our students voice is our first and primary job as broadcast journalist, right? You know, and allowing them to speak to others, you know, like you said, you know, I like to have legislators come in or other teachers come in or admin come into my classroom where, where a lot of teachers are like, oh, man, you let the principal in your room willingly? You know, you know, or you let the superintendent come in your room willingly, you know? And I'm like, yeah, of course. It's a comfort that I think journalism or the arts in general have with others and building that community and things that our particular job, I feel allows us to be together, you know, or be one, which is great. I know that's kind of corny, but it's true.

Krista [00:06:37] It's true. I know I'm with you on that.

Sequoyah [00:06:41] So, I guess before you got into teaching, what is something you wish you had known earlier, either before your teaching career or getting into it? You know, what are some things that, you know, come to mind?

Krista [00:06:53] Oh, for me, we're told that there's, like, you're supposed to do teaching a certain way. A lot of it isn't science based. So that was something I learned early on, because I'm really interested in neuroscience...is like, why are we doing what we're doing? And there's a lot of great people out there trying their best to make education amazing, and everyone's working really hard, but there's not one way to do it. I am an energetic, I am out there, and I am like, yes, my kids laugh at me because I, like, get super geeky and excited. And then, my best friend who's a teacher is like a stoic kind of English teacher. But both of us love our kids, and the kids love us because they know that–that we’re true to ourselves. And I think. I wish I had been told earlier, like, be true to who you are.

Sequoyah [00:07:50] Yeah, that's definitely good advice.

Krista [00:07:52] But what you said reminded me of a question that Mindy from Clinton, New York, sent in. And she asked, how can teachers balance structure and flexibility in their teaching approach to allow for organic moments of discovery and exploration?

Sequoyah [00:08:10] I hate to answer your question with a question, but, you know, how do you evoke creativity and self-expression in certain classes? You know, like, so say it's a math class, you know, how are you doing that? And, I mean, I have ideas, but but I'm, you know, how do you do that? Right? So, it really takes a teacher to think outside the box and really maybe pair up with other subjects. You know, that cross collaboration within the school, right.

Krista [00:08:42] I'm using a lot of information from The Learning Scientists, which is a great website. Everyone should check them out. They're amazing. They're for cognitive scientists who try and get research from neuroscience into teachers' hands and help them understand how kids' brains work. And so I've been doing a lot of work with helping my students learn how they learn. And then I told my students, okay, you can vote on something that I'm going to learn. They eventually all the classes decided on me learning how to play the guitar, but I went and I picked up the guitar from the music teacher, and I talked to her about it. And then I give the kids updates like, all right, you were supposed to spend an hour on my work last week, so I spent an hour on the guitar last week. And then at the end of the quarter,  they know I'm going to perform for them using all the techniques that I learned. And I've never picked up a guitar. I'm not musical like this is quite the challenge for me, but being vulnerable and doing what you ask of the students, I think, gets them excited and helps them be imaginative and discover new things too. Like, look, my teacher, who's 40, is still out there trying to learn new things and she looks ridiculous. Maybe I could try something new too.

Sequoyah [00:09:59] It's true. Yeah, I yeah, that vulnerable part is so important.

[ record scratch ]

Conrad [00:10:04] Okay, let's interrupt this for now [ laughter ]. Kaufman's been wanting a record scratch, so, like, put it right there. I love the fact that learning guitar was brought up by the kids. And instead of saying, “oh, no, I could never do that,” or “I don't...I'm not a musical person,” or every other excuse that you could give a kid. She said, “yeah, let's do it.”

Kaufman [00:10:25] I love that

Conrad [00:10:25] Has that ever happened, has anything like that? Have your kids ever said something to you like that in your classroom?

Kaufman [00:10:29] So my students are always trying to get me to do crazy TikToks, right? So, I mean, it's never been go and learn something new. It's try something new, or like because I'm of an age that I'm a little older, they're always saying stuff like, “man, that's fire.” And I'll say, “man, that's fire” –is what? You know, they ate it. And I'm like, okay, so let's do: geriatrics learn how to actually speak teen. And they love it and they eat it up. And it's like, teach me what you know and I'll teach you what I know. And it's it's a back and forth. So it's not me learning the guitar, but it's still connections with students.

Conrad [00:11:02] Yeah. I think one of the things I love to do in my class, and I've been doing this now for a couple of years, is playlists. And when the kids come in to get to know them, I ask them to connect with me over a song that they like, and then I start listening. It seems so simple; oh, listen to the music that the kids like. Oh, this music these days. No, I, I just– it's just a simple way to show them that you care outside of assignments and grades and scores.

Kaufman [00:11:30] So let's get rid of the rubrics and let's talk about what else goes on beyond the curriculum...

Krista [00:11:35] We have to get to this question from Elaine from Rancho Cucamonga, California, because I love this question because, you have your doctorate. She asks about: what are the results of current studies and data, and what do they show us about effective learning environments and strategies, and how do you incorporate them even if they don't check that curriculum standard box?

Sequoyah [00:11:59] Yeah. You know, yeah, I was looking at that question myself. And it's funny, too. Like what? Current studies. There's so many studies regarding learning environment, strategies. You know, even my dissertation, I looked at– I did a comparative study where I looked at art programs and how they're either integrated into a school's curriculum or not. In New York, you have to have arts or music, part of your curriculum to graduate as a high school student. Comparatively, I did it to Florida school districts where the arts is not part of the program and you do not need arts to graduate. The comparative study showed that students who had arts involvement scored better on standardized tests. In essence, to answer Elaine’s question, you know, it makes it a more effective environment. What do you think?

Krista [00:12:47] Well, for me, I think in the education world, in particular, because that's where my expertise is, it could be in other places. We don't quite understand what science is, at least when it comes to educational research. There's a lot of misunderstanding between what's a case study where we look at just what one teacher does versus what's a causational study where we look at, did this cause that? And I think there's a lot of mixing up with that when we talk about research and education. And I think teachers get so overwhelmed. Like I still hear people talking about learning styles and that kids learn better auditory versus kinesthetic versus visual. And I'm like, no, no, no, that research has been thoroughly debunked. So it's about finding, like, the right resources, I think, for education. And again, I really love The Learning Scientists. I think they do great work. Johns Hopkins Cognitive Science Lab does great work. I'm also going to shout out The Center for Transformative Teaching and Learning, which is a bunch of teachers who got interested in neuroscience and started working with neuroscientists to get that information to teachers. But I think we have a big problem with burnout in teachers. And as you and I are talking, like field trips take time. Guest speakers take time. Finding diverse models takes time. Learning the different projects takes time. Like, all of this is incredibly time consuming. Reading research and how to apply it. It all takes time. Any teacher who's trying to make their classroom better, I encourage you to pick 1 or 2 things a year, and not try and do everything at once. And I still do that in my 15 years, is: every year at the beginning of the year, I'm like, okay, what's my thing I'm going to work on? Sometimes I will change mid-year. This year, my big thing that I wanted to work on was writing. And then we got, three, three months in and I was like, my kids are really depressed, really depressed. And I started doing this research about like, it's not just my kids. It's like huge depression rates across the country. And so I was like, okay, my goal was that, but I'm going to switch it. I'm going to learn more about well-being. And I found Doctor Santos's work. I don't know if you're familiar with her. She's from Yale. She has the most popular course ever called The Science of Well-Being, and she just made a curriculum for high school teachers about teaching kids how to take care of themselves. And so I was like, okay, that's my goal for this year. I'm going to help them learn how to take care of themselves. But that means I've set some things aside. I'm not doing as many guest speakers this year as I normally do. I'm not doing as many field trips as I normally do because this is my priority. And I think as we teach outside the curriculum, as we do all this stuff, we have to remember we can't do everything.

Sequoyah [00:15:41] Basically, what we're trying to take home here is that everybody needs to be involved, right? It's a big thing, you know, and it's easier. It's definitely easier said than done to make, just to make that community work. You know, it's a never ending, never ending battle, but for the good of our students.

Mike Conrad [00:16:04] I really enjoyed what they said there because everybody's classroom is different. And we can't just do the broad strokes, “hey everybody do this...”

Michael Kaufman [00:16:12] But you just have to be comfortable in your own shoes, right? So like and last year I learned something else that I find that students really enjoy seeing you trying something different with other teachers. So like, they had a little talent show, and I tap danced with a bunch of other teachers. Kids talked about that for like 2 or 3 weeks, and it was just something that they went, oh, you can do that. We didn't even know you could do that. And I was like, yeah, yeah. And let's, let's, you know, so what do you guys do? And speaking of trying new things, this is my first time doing a podcast. So I'm going to be talking to my students about this as an experience. And I hope it was a good experience for you who are listening. And I hope it was a good experience for you, Mike Conrad. 

Mike Conrad [00:16:50] Why thank you, Mike Kaufman. We are “the Mike’s...”

Michael Kaufman [00:16:56] ...hey, you wanted me to join in on that one.

Mike Conrad [00:16:58] Yeah, I know, but you didn't .

Michael Kaufman [00:16:59] I didn't, I blew it. 

Mike Conrad [00:17:00] because it's a bad idea.

Micahel Kaufman [00:17:03] All right, so coming up next, keep listening because we'll get better at this and, (will we? maybe)... One of our upcoming episodes is strategies for creating inclusive classroom environments. So that's pretty exciting.

Mike Conrad [00:17:17] And then we'll have another one, which I'm sure is going to be of vital interest to a lot of us: educator mental health and well-being. This podcast is produced by SRL’s Community Engagement Manager Emily Hope Dobkin, also known as Dobz, edited by Evan Gulock, who's one of my former students and SRL students. So it's wonderful to be alongside him as a colleague, and with support from lead podcast producer Briget Ganske. 

Michael Kaufman [00:17:39] and many thanks to SRL Editorial Director Marie Cusick and Executive Producer Leah Clapman 

[ music ] 

Michael Kaufman: You know, one of the most important things to me is food. And I got to tell you, my wife was going to put together a sandwich for me, and I said, you know what? I really just don't want the turkey and the cheese and the sauce...

Mike Conrad [00:18:03] I hate where you're going with this...

Michael Kaufman [00:18:05] It can't be a sandwich; it has to be something I would look at and go: 

Michael Kaufman and Mike Conrad: That's a wrap! [ laughter ]